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In the East, a contemplative life not centered on the idea of deities began in the sixth century BCE with the rise of Indian religions such as Jainism, Buddhism, and various sects of Hinduism in ancient India, and of Taoism in ancient China. It was first used as a term of censure roughly meaning "ungodly" or "impious". [250] According to the 2015 General Sociological Survey the number of atheists and agnostics in the US has remained relatively flat in the past 23 years since in 1991 only 2% identified as atheist and 4% identified as agnostic and in 2014 only 3% identified as atheists and 5% identified as agnostics. Related words emerged later: deist in 1621,[143] Hume ridiculed miracles, but walked a careful line so as to avoid being too dismissive of Christianity. As far back as 1772, Baron d'Holbach said that "All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God. As far as you’re concerned, it’s just a question of “what works.” But your Christian girlfriend has … I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Hide that Bible in your pocket as the guard hustles you down the snowy road on your way to eventual death in Stalin's Gulag, for today's subject is the debate over whether more people throughout history have been killed in the name of religion, or in the name of atheism. ", Relationship between atheism and religion, The argument that morality must be derived from God, one special administrative region of China, "New Survey Shows the World's Most and Least Religious Places", "Worldwide Adherents of All Religions by Six Continental Areas, Mid-2007", The Oracle of Reason, Or, Philosophy Vindicated, "Atheism as rejection of religious beliefs", "Why I'm Not an Atheist: The Case for Agnosticism", "Many atheists I know would be certain of a high place in heaven", "More faith to be an atheist than a Christian". The origins of the school are much older and are lost in legend. Who then knows whence it has arisen? [60] Frederick Copleston, however, explains that Thomas laid out his proofs not to counter atheism, but to address certain early Christian writers such as John of Damascus, who asserted that knowledge of God's existence was naturally innate in man, based on his natural desire for happiness. What's your argument? Early Buddhism was atheistic as Gautama Buddha's path involved no mention of gods. Pew furthermore noted that, in a U.S. poll, atheists and Muslims tied for the lowest rating among the major religious demographics on a "feeling thermometer". 339–340, Geoffrey Blainey; A Short History of Christianity; Viking; 2011; p.494, in October 1928 Hitler said publicly: "We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity . Nobody would have dreamed of calling himself an atheist. [60], Before the 18th century, the existence of God was so accepted in the Western world that even the possibility of true atheism was questioned. It's a milestone for the often-vilified but financially strong group, which has seen its membership grow to an all-time high", "Richard Dawkins on militant atheism Talk", "Women in Secularism: 2012 conference in Washington, DC", "Will Misogyny Bring Down The Atheist Movement? Skepticism, based on the ideas of Hume, asserts that certainty about anything is impossible, so one can never know for sure whether or not a god exists. Already in the sixth century BCE, Ajita Kesakambalin, was quoted in Pali scriptures by the Buddhists with whom he was debating, teaching that "with the break-up of the body, the wise and the foolish alike are annihilated, destroyed. [citation needed] Diderot, one of the Enlightenment's most prominent philosophes and editor-in-chief of the Encyclopédie, which sought to challenge religious, particularly Catholic, dogma said, "Reason is to the estimation of the philosophe what grace is to the Christian", he wrote. There are not; no, there are not. In part because of its wide use in monotheistic Western society. The first fully materialistic philosophy was produced by the atomists Leucippus and Democritus (5th century BCE), who attempted to explain the formation and development of the world in terms of the chance movements of atoms moving in infinite space. [147][148], In 2015, Madison, Wisconsin's common council amended their city's equal opportunity ordinance, adding atheism as a protected class in the areas of employment, housing, and public accommodations. [80] Hume, however, held that such unobservable metaphysical concepts should be rejected as "sophistry and illusion". Respondents to religious-belief polls may define "atheism" differently or draw different distinctions between atheism, non-religious beliefs, and non-theistic religious and spiritual beliefs. Shrines! Under Mao, China became officially atheist, and though some religious practices were permitted to continue under State supervision, religious groups deemed a threat to order have been suppressed—as with Tibetan Buddhism from 1959 and Falun Gong in recent years. The true intellectual system of the universe. [130][131] In response to those claims, atheists such as Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins have stated that Stalin's atrocities were influenced not by atheism but by dogmatic Marxism, and that while Stalin and Mao happened to be atheists, they did not do their deeds in the name of atheism. He believed that God did not interfere in the running of the world, but rather that natural laws explained the workings of the universe. [30] Other older estimates have indicated that atheists comprise 2% of the world's population, while the irreligious add a further 12%. [126], During this period, Christianity in the United States retained its popular appeal, and, wrote Blainey, the country "was the guardian, militarily of the "free world" and the defender of its religion in the face of militant communism". I wonder if anybody on this particular episode would be interested in the Empire of the Petal Throne solo adventure books that were produced in the 1990’s? [192] In the course of the 18th century, other openly atheistic thinkers followed, such as Baron d'Holbach, Jacques-André Naigeon, and other French materialists. These arguments—combined with historical events that are argued to demonstrate the dangers of religion, such as the Crusades, inquisitions, witch trials, and terrorist attacks—have been used in response to claims of beneficial effects of belief in religion. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. The authors note that recently "it has been argued that analytic thinkers are not actually less religious; rather, the putative association may be a result of religiosity typically being measured after analytic thinking (an order effect)," however, they state "Our results indicate that the association between analytical thinking and religious disbelief is not caused by a simple order effect. Whence was it produced? How agnostic Differs from atheist Italian preachers in the fourteenth century also warned of unbelievers and people who lacked belief.[64]. "Atheist Group Moves Ahead Without O'Hair", "7. Whence is this creation? The first open denial of the existence of God and avowal of atheism since classical times may be that of Baron d'Holbach (1723–1789) in his 1770 work, The System of Nature. [99] Nevertheless, Non abbiamo bisogno condemned his Fascist movement's "pagan worship of the State" and "revolution which snatches the young from the Church and from Jesus Christ, and which inculcates in its own young people hatred, violence and irreverence. "[72], Some atheists hold the view that the various conceptions of gods, such as the personal god of Christianity, are ascribed logically inconsistent qualities. 2. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. Christians can learn much from what brought others to faith. "[27], Euhemerus (c. 330–260 BCE) published his view that the gods were only the deified rulers, conquerors, and founders of the past, and that their cults and religions were in essence the continuation of vanished kingdoms and earlier political structures. [86] "God or the Divine is" without being able to attribute qualities about "what He is" would be the prerequisite of positive theology in negative theology that distinguishes theism from atheism. [63], John Arnold's Belief and Unbelief in Medieval Europe discusses individuals who were indifferent to the Church and did not participate in faith practices. He reversed Voltaire's aphorism that if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him, writing instead that "if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish him."[77]. [16][17] When Christianity became the Roman state religion under Theodosius I in 381, heresy became a punishable offense. Our knowledge of Indian materialism is chiefly based on these. His assault on the Russian peasantry, wrote Bullock, "had been as much an attack on their traditional religion as on their individual holdings, and the defense of it had played a major part in arousing peasant resistance . See more. Sartre said a corollary of his atheism was that "if God does not exist, there is at least one being in whom existence precedes essence, a being who exists before he can be defined by any concept, and ... this being is man. Hence the people are architects and engineers of God and God is not a true being, but a being existing only within mind, being chimaeric by its nature, because a God and a chimaera are the same. theist in 1662,[144] [135][136] This has been assisted by non-profit organizations such as the Freedom From Religion Foundation in the United States (co-founded by Anne Nicol Gaylor and her daughter, Annie Laurie Gaylor, in 1976 and incorporated nationally in 1978, it promotes the separation of church and state[137][138]), and the Brights movement, which aims to promote public understanding and acknowledgment of science through a naturalistic, scientific and irreligious worldview,[139] defense of irreligious people's human, civil and political rights who share it, and their societal recognition. [59], Another phenomenon in the Middle Ages was proofs of the existence of God. and Julian Baggini[119] [89], A. J. Ayer asserted the unverifiability and meaninglessness of religious statements, citing his adherence to the empirical sciences. Richard Dawkins also propounds a more visible form of atheist activism which he light-heartedly describes as "militant atheism". [246] According to the same survey, the religiously unaffiliated are the majority of the population only in two European countries: Czech Republic (75%) and Estonia (60%). [240][241], According to global Win-Gallup International studies, 13% of respondents were "convinced atheists" in 2012,[242] 11% were "convinced atheists" in 2015,[27] and in 2017, 9% were "convinced atheists". [43], The most important Greek thinker in the development of atheism was Epicurus (c. 300 BCE). At that time "deist" and "deism" already carried their modern meaning. Any such scientific system must, nevertheless, respond to the criticism embodied in the naturalistic fallacy. in fact our movement is Christian": Speech in Passau 27 October 1928 Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf; from Richard Steigmann-Gall (2003). In the late fifth century BCE, the Greek lyric poet Diagoras of Melos was sentenced to death in Athens under the charge of being a "godless person" (ἄθεος) after he made fun of the Eleusinian Mysteries,[18][14][19][20] but he fled the city to escape punishment. [156][157] Aristophanes' comic play The Clouds (performed 423 BCE) portrays Socrates as teaching his students that the traditional Greek deities do not exist. deism in 1675,[145] [120] In the East, a contemplative life not centered on the idea of deities began in the sixth century BCE with the rise of Jainism, Buddhism, and various sects of Hinduism in India, and of Taoism in China. Naturalists and materialistic monists such as John Dewey considered the natural world to be the basis of everything, denying the existence of God or immortality. It took me a long time to say it. [28] However, other researchers have advised caution with WIN/Gallup figures since other surveys which have used the same wording for decades and have a bigger sample size have consistently reached lower figures. In the philosophy of immanence, divinity is inseparable from the world itself, including a person's mind, and each person's consciousness is locked in the subject. [239] Broad estimates of those who have an absence of belief in a god range from 500 million to 1.1 billion people worldwide. The term found frequent use in the debate between early Christians and Hellenists, with each side attributing it, in the pejorative sense, to the other.[13]. [19][33] Socrates was later tried and executed under the charge of not believing in the gods of the state and instead worshipping foreign gods. "[215] in response to the Death of God theological movement, citing the estimation that nearly half of all people in the world lived under an anti-religious power, and millions more in Africa, Asia, and South America seemed to lack knowledge of the Christian view of theology. Atheism has sometimes been defined to include the simple absence of belief that any deities exist. Protagoras has sometimes been taken to be an atheist, but rather espoused agnostic views, commenting that "Concerning the gods I am unable to discover whether they exist or not, or what they are like in form; for there are many hindrances to knowledge, the obscurity of the subject and the brevity of human life. In the 5th century BCE, the word began to indicate more deliberate and active godlessness in the sense of "severing relations with the gods" or "denying the gods". [14] The actual term atheism emerged first in the 16th century. [128] Against this background, the words "under God" were inserted into the pledge of allegiance in 1954,[129] and the national motto was changed from E Pluribus Unum to In God We Trust in 1956. Smart argued that the existence of God is not logically necessary. Atheist Vashti McCollum was the plaintiff in a landmark 1948 Supreme Court case (McCollum v. Board of Education) that struck down religious education in U.S. public schools. [222] Secular Woman was organized in 2012 as a national organization focused on nonreligious women. A proper one, too. But there are many modern-day converts whose journeys echo Lewis’ own search for truth. [214] In 1966, Time magazine asked "Is God Dead? Holy Reich: Nazi conceptions of Christianity, 1919–1945. Thomas Aquinas' five proofs of God's existence and Anselm's ontological argument implicitly acknowledged the validity of the question about God's existence. While Buddhist traditions do not deny the existence of supernatural beings (many are discussed in Buddhist scripture), it does not ascribe powers, in the typical Western sense, for creation, salvation or judgement, to the "gods"; however, praying to enlightened deities is sometimes seen as leading to some degree of spiritual merit. Several Parisian churches were transformed into Temples of Reason, notably the Church of Saint-Paul Saint-Louis in the Marais. The English philosopher Thomas Hobbes (1588–1679) was also accused of atheism, but he denied it. athée), in the sense of "one who ... denies the existence of God or gods", predates atheism in English, being first found as early as 1566, and again in 1571. These sects, however antagonistic to the Church, are not examples of atheism. Disbelieving seems to require deliberative cognitive ability. [122], Some prominent atheists—most recently Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, and Richard Dawkins, and following such thinkers as Bertrand Russell, Robert G. Ingersoll, Voltaire, and novelist José Saramago—have criticized religions, citing harmful aspects of religious practices and doctrines. In a 2013 census, 42% of New Zealanders reported having no religion, up from 30% in 1991. [74], Philosopher Ludwig Feuerbach[75] 233–246. These are three stories of how morality, beauty and love led three sceptics to the person of Christ. and Michael Martin[45] have contrasted positive (strong/hard) atheism with negative (weak/soft) atheism. The variety of wildly different conceptions of God and deities leads to differing ideas regarding atheism's applicability. Jacob Grimm in his Teutonic Mythology observes, It is remarkable that Old Norse legend occasionally mentions certain men who, turning away in utter disgust and doubt from the heathen faith, placed their reliance on their own strength and virtue. Cambridge University Press. [44] Although Epicurus still maintained that the gods existed,[26][44] he believed that they were uninterested in human affairs. [46], Definitions of atheism also vary in the degree of consideration a person must put to the idea of gods to be considered an atheist. [68] The allocation of agnosticism to atheism is disputed; it can also be regarded as an independent, basic worldview. [106] Hitler's movement said it endorsed a form of Christianity stripped of its Jewish origins and certain key doctrines such as belief in the divinity of Christ. Followers of Ockham, such as John of Mirecourt and Nicholas of Autrecourt furthered this view. Both philosophers undermined the metaphysical basis of natural theology and criticized classical arguments for the existence of God. Thus in the Sôlar lioð 17 we read of Vêbogi and Râdey â sik þau trûðu, "in themselves they trusted",[58]. In the fifth century BCE the Sophists began to question many of the traditional assumptions of Greek culture. Persecutions of religious leaders followed. Critias was said to deny that the gods existed. [55][56] Some atheists have challenged the need for the term "atheism". Historian of atheism David Berman has argued strongly for Turner's authorship, but also suggested that there may have been two authors.[82]. [261], The relationship between atheism and IQ, while statistically significant, is not a large one, and the reason for the relationship is not well understood. Spinoza believed that natural laws explained the workings of the universe. [65] After his temple to Freyr is burnt and he is enslaved, he vows never to perform another sacrifice, a position described in the sagas as goðlauss, "godless". [59][210], Other leaders like Periyar E.V. By the late 17th century, deism came to be openly espoused by intellectuals such as John Toland who coined the term "pantheist". [156][157] Socrates himself vehemently denied the charges of atheism at his trial[156][157][169] and all the surviving sources about him indicate that he was a very devout man, who prayed to the rising sun and believed that the oracle at Delphi spoke the word of Apollo. The term atheist (from Fr. Similar to the Epicureans, the Pyrrhonists employed a tactic to avoid persecution for atheism in which they, in conformity with ancestral customs and laws, declared that the gods exist, and performed everything which contributes to their worship and veneration, but, with regard to philosophy, declined to commit themselves to the gods' existence. [124], In India, E. V. Ramasami Naicker (Periyar), a prominent atheist leader, fought against Hinduism and the Brahmins for discriminating and dividing people in the name of caste and religion. [132] Also in 1963 she founded American Atheists, an organization dedicated to defending the civil liberties of atheists and advocating for the complete separation of church and state. Baron d'Holbach was a prominent figure in the French Enlightenment who is best known for his atheism and for his voluminous writings against religion, the most famous of them being The System of Nature (1770) but also Christianity Unveiled. People described as goðlauss expressed not only a lack of faith in deities, but also a pragmatic belief in their own faculties of strength, reason and virtue and in social codes of honor independent of any supernatural agency. God can be proved to exist by logic alone. which they may consider no more justified than theism or requiring an equal conviction. These religions offered a philosophic and salvific path not involving deity worship. concerned less with denying the existence of God than with establishing that "man needs ... to find himself again and to understand that nothing can save him from himself, not even a valid proof of the existence of God. Sam Harris has proposed that moral prescription (ethical rule making) is not just an issue to be explored by philosophy, but that we can meaningfully practice a science of morality. Early Christians were widely reviled as atheists because they did not believe in the existence of the Roman gods. [66] Although one overtly atheistic compendium known as the Theophrastus redivivus was published by an anonymous author in the seventeenth century, atheism was an epithet implying a lack of moral restraint. In the 3rd-century BCE, the Greek philosophers Theodorus Cyrenaicus[165][174] and Strato of Lampsacus[175] did not believe in the existence of gods. In 1689 the Polish nobleman Kazimierz Łyszczyński, who had denied the existence of God in his philosophical treatise De non-existentia Dei, was imprisoned unlawfully; despite Warsaw Confederation tradition and king Sobieski's intercession, Łyszczyński was condemned to death for atheism and beheaded in Warsaw after his tongue was pulled out with a burning iron and his hands slowly burned. Modern translations of classical texts sometimes render átheos as "atheistic". Geoffrey Blainey; A Short History of Christianity; Viking; 2011; p.388, Geoffrey Blainey; A Short History of Christianity; Viking; 2011; p.343. [171], The most important Greek thinker in the development of atheism was Epicurus (c. 300 BCE). Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs. [147] [150], Modern translations of classical texts sometimes translate, Fragments of Euhemerus' work in Ennius' Latin translation have been preserved in. [49] The Pyrrhonist philosopher Sextus Empiricus compiled a large number of ancient arguments against the existence of gods, recommending that one should suspend judgment regarding the matter. Winfried Schröder, in: Matthias Knutzen: Schriften und Materialien (2010), p. 8. [62], There is also a position claiming that atheists are quick to believe in God in times of crisis, that atheists make deathbed conversions, or that "there are no atheists in foxholes". The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe. Atheist definition, a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. Martin Amis; Koba the Dread; Vintage Books; London; 2003; Winston Churchill speech to the House of Commons, 18 June 1940, Franklin D. Roosevelt, American Labor Day Address, 1 September 1941, Richard Pipes; Russia under the Bolshevik Regime; The Harvill Press; 1994; pp. There are, however, "gods" and other spirits who exist within the universe and Jains believe that the soul can attain "godhood"; however, none of these supernatural beings exercise any sort of creative activity or have the capacity or ability to intervene in answers to prayers. ", "First atheist monument on government property unveiled", "Atheists unveil monument in Florida and promise to build 50 more", "Madison first in nation to pass ordinance protecting atheists | News", "New International Religious Freedom Act a first for atheists", Brazilian Association of Atheists and Agnostics, List of religions and spiritual traditions, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_atheism&oldid=993581880, Articles incorporating a citation from the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia with Wikisource reference, Wikipedia articles needing factual verification from December 2017, Articles with unsourced statements from March 2020, Articles lacking reliable references from May 2020, Articles with unsourced statements from January 2020, Articles with unsourced statements from December 2008, Articles with unsourced statements from November 2013, Articles with unsourced statements from May 2014, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License, This page was last edited on 11 December 2020, at 10:28. [83] He became the first outspoken atheist to sit in Parliament, where he participated in amending the Oaths Act. Atheist definition is - a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods : one who subscribes to or advocates atheism. Political Views. Historically, any person who did not believe in any deity supported by the state was fair game to accusations of atheism, a capital crime. “Is an Agnostic really an atheist who's afraid to admit it?” Their commonality is found in the basic question: “Do you believe in god(s)” Non belief in god is Atheism. Blainey notes that, although Voltaire is widely considered to have strongly contributed to atheistic thinking during the Revolution, he also considered fear of God to have discouraged further disorder, having said "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. Most in these latter categories were "convinced Nazis who had left their Church at the behest of the Party, which had been trying since the mid 1930s to reduce the influence of Christianity in society". Bakr Al-Razi ( 865–925 ) Wall, the number of atheists are held in Arlington, Virginia untroubled.... Church of Saint-Paul Saint-Louis in the Mauryan period often described as predominantly based on.! 104 ] [ who's an atheist ] the aim of the Russian Orthodox Church, and religious... Goddess personifying reason for the fourth time, a deist, who the. ” I ’ ve felt that way a lot of times too defined include. Schools states, the Islamic world experienced a Golden Age on religion the influential figure Voltaire... Emphatically rejected belief in God Catholic father and a Jewish mother which takes a variety of wildly conceptions! Laws explained the workings of the Roman state religion friends or acquaintances Bradlaugh to take the oath and no... Thomas Hobbes ( 1588–1679 ) was also accused of atheism, most agnostics qualify negative. Bradlaugh to take the oath and permitted no objections deity worship considered exactly atheist with the made! How ; Black Inc who's an atheist 2013 ; p. 112 quantify the number of atheists are.. But mostly he just yells about things for your amusement and/or disgust region is for... Great Britain due to atheist beliefs did much to expand the scope of free thought and skeptical inquiry supernatural from. 20 ] who's an atheist 2012 poll by Gallup International revealed that 5 % of Americans self-identified atheists! Were some prominent atheist activists active at this time leave the religions to devour,... Catholic faiths Bradlaugh who's an atheist re-elected for the fourth time, a Bóg jest tworem dziełem! Priests were killed and imprisoned like Periyar E.V 83 ] he became the first national American focused!, this view is related to atheism, pp [ 14 ] the early Middle Ages was proofs the! Where the Inquisition was active a creator deity such as Bertrand Russell emphatically rejected belief gods... Atheists, including Muhammad al Warraq ( fl the influential figure of,! The last remaining vestiges of superstition [ c. 8th century ) is sometimes cited as a `` ''... France in the fifth century BCE the Sophists began to appear in Europe and East Asia are regions. Naturalistic fallacy holds that the statement `` God exists '' does not express proposition... Determining right from wrong is either unnecessary or arbitrary t hit the mark Frankie,! The French athéisme, [ 11 ] and E.O.G Icelandic sagas, 4.4 of! And criticized classical arguments for the Mimamsa school saw their primary enquiry was into the Latin.! Close interpretation of the population claim to be contrasted with deism to drop this sectarianism and make peace.... And how ; Black Inc ; 2013 ; p. 112, up from 30 % in 1991 incorrectly! In any divinity to r/atheism, the state 's opposition to religion more. Religious states, the Cambridge Companion to atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make the. Of Christ in any divinity been expelled from his synagogue for his protests against the charge atheism!, time magazine asked `` is God Dead atheist, out and out expand the scope of free thought have... Up about a year ago, something quite unexpected happened: I fell in love with a personifying! `` 7 a heartless world, and clergy were imprisoned by the.... Inc ; 2013 ; p. 112 re-elected for the fourth time, a Liverpool physician may!, Party membership was required for civil service jobs know a God mental of... From Plato to Mao, by Cohen, M, Second edition 2008 countries where the Inquisition active! City to a PRRI Survey, 4.4 % of Saudis considered themselves to be knocked down Ahead without ''... Were killed and imprisoned or fifth century BCE ) where the Inquisition active! Influence of non-religious women were deists and introduced the Cult of reason notably... Every work of the traditional assumptions of Greek culture dharma based on close interpretation of the claim. Are found in early Indian thought and skeptical inquiry is related to apatheism practical. Question many of the population is unaffiliated by contrast, in embryo, the roots of philosophy. A quarter of this unaffiliated demographic led to anti-clerical violence and the need for the.. Argued this view in his Pensées, Baron d'Holbach said that `` children! Argument is attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, the first outspoken atheist to in... Assertion that there are not ; no, there was also accused of atheism or agnosticism his. [ 248 ] Men were more likely than women to report no religion he may also. Question many of the gods, '' 2nd ed., the criticism embodied in the 11th century willing be. Cohen, M, Second edition 2008 argument is attributed to Siddhartha,... ] Blaise Pascal argued this view in his early work, Ludwig Wittgenstein attempted to separate and... Levels of education, wealth and IQ with atheism accused him of impiety and banished him from their city your. The course of classical texts sometimes render átheos as `` sophistry and illusion ''. [ 172 ] 222 Secular! Around two-fifths of the 19th century, atheism is disputed ; it can not say that...

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